Protecting your designs and copyright

[Circuitbenders]

I'm still not entirely sure what you would ever gain from putting a copyright notice inside each machine though.

Firstly theres the extremely dubious legality or validity of doing such a thing anyway, but if we ignore that for the moment and say for the sake of argument that it means anything, what exactly would you do if someone bought one of your machines, copied what you'd done and then started selling the exact same thing?

I'm thinking theres really not a lot you are in a position to do. IF you could actually prove that they had copied your design and IF you could prove that nobody had ever done those mods before you anyway, which would seem very unlikely, then what are you actually going to do about it? Take them to court for copyright infringement?

No offence but you are not Roland or Yamaha and you don't have those kind of resources behind you. I suspect that given the open source nature of 99% of the circuitbending community a lot of whom have probably reproduced most of your mods in the past, you'd probably be laughed out of court. I'm not a lawyer and i don't have any real knowledge of copyright law so obviously this is all conjecture, but i'd be astounded if it worked out in your favour.

Anyone who has been in circuitbending a while probably remembers the bizarre antics of Jesse Tablebeast who seemed to have much the same ideas on copyright and even went to the extent of sending emails to anyone who had ever put a patchbay on an SK1 claiming that he had invented the idea and if they didn't stop doing it then he would take 'further action'. Oddly enough nothing ever came of it but he did end up being one of the most hated people in circuitbending. 

[s-cat]

I'm still not entirely sure what you would ever gain from putting a copyright notice inside each machine though.

The copyright symbol just denotes that we are aware of copyright laws, if in the future we do find that we can claim copyright on something then we are covered. Roland and Yamaha started from the bottom, just as we have and then grew their business into the company that we see today. We are in this for the long run and will be using our experience to eventualy design and build machines from scratch.

We do own the copyright of the drawings that we have made from our findings and could publish a book with  details on how to build the modified units. The book it's self would have a copyright symbol on it and we could then take action if any of it was published without permission.

At the moment we seem to have a good name for ourselves, except with you.

[Circuitbenders]

At the moment we seem to have a good name for ourselves, except with you.

Ok i'll rise to the bait. You've made a good name for yourselves with the people you sell your stuff too, i wouldn't deny that.

A lot of other circuitbenders on the other hand seem to see it a little differently, maybe because of your apparent desire to not LET anyone sell anything that includes any mods that apparently infringe on your supposed copyrights. You're not going to give people any real information on your mods, we've been through that already, but a wish to actually STOP people from using any mods that you've done is really not what i thought the circuitbending community was all about, if it was then i wouldn't have started this forum in the first place. Correct me if i've misunderstood here as i'd really like to think that i have.

I've also done a few mods on a VL1 and i'd be willing to bet that most of them are similar to yours as theres not that much you can really do in there. Are you suggesting that i shouldn't be allowed to sell a modded VL1 without checking out your designs first to make sure they aren't similar and paying you a licence fee because some of the mods might be identical to yours? Are you suggesting that because i might have been the first person to put a patchbay on a certain drum machine that nobody else should be allowed to do the same thing and sell it without asking me first, because personally i think that would be complete bullshit.

Or are you now changing direction so that now you only want copyright on your drawings of your mods and would only 'take action' if someone reproduced the drawings rather than the mods themselves?

Big companies like Roland & Yamaha are very different as they didn't spring from a movement of like minded people getting together to share ideas and have fun making noise as a community. They came solely from a desire to make money and so they had a need to protect and copyright their designs from each other. That is not what i'd want to see the circuitbending community ever turning into and thats never what it should be, but thats just my opinion. So whats it to be, are you going to be part of the community or are you going to try to copyright your mods in the hope of becoming Roland?

I'm not having a go at you personally, i'm having a go at the whole idea of copyrighting circuitbent designs and you seem to be the only person who thinks its reasonable. Having said that, i could be wrong but i don't think a desire to copyright a circuitbent design is going to make anyone any friends around here.

[LoneStar81]

Roland and Yamaha started from the bottom, just as we have and then grew their business into the company that we see today. We are in this for the long run and will be using our experience to eventualy design and build machines from scratch.

There is a tiny difference between you and Roland or Yamaha:
Before the founders even started their business, they were already engineers and educated technicians. Also they designed and thus, created electronics from scratch. Disturbing an existing circuit so it malfunctions and produces bizarre sounds BY CHANCE that again BY CHANCE might be liked by some people doesn't qualify as a creation in the technical sense. And that's exactly what circuit bending is. Ask an experienced lawyer.
Further, if you want to design and build your own stuff some time, I strongly suggest you to get a proper education in electronics. It helps, believe me.

[Gordonjcp]

The real skill lies in creating new circuits that create bizarre "circuit-bent" sounds *by design*, not by accident.  This takes time, a bit of skill and a bit of inspiration.  I won't be producing any kits until 2nd quarter 2010.  'Nuff said.

[ZedAxis]

Are you talking about the Delfy units?

No - there's this little company selling small noise making gizmo's called postcard weevil's that are selliing like hot cakes since 2 guys from TG have been using them. Built & manufactured from there own design - just thought you'd appreciate their business approach as it seems to work for them OK.

Anyhow, I agree with CrustyPaul's post - v. well put. Why have such grand ideas if you're already doing what you set out to do & people like it?? Why would you wanna be like Roland ? Is'nt it satisfying enough to be part of an active community & small scene where your ideas & input is appreciated? I can't see why you'd burden yourself with business & legal stuff unless it stops you doing what you like.

[s-cat]

At the moment we seem to have a good name for ourselves, except with you.

Ok i'll rise to the bait. You've made a good name for yourselves with the people you sell your stuff too, i wouldn't deny that.

A lot of other circuitbenders on the other hand seem to see it a little differently, maybe because of your apparent desire to not LET anyone sell anything that includes any mods that apparently infringe on your supposed copyrights.

Can you tell me why we are being miss-quoted here, we have not in any post said that we wouldn't let anyone sell anything that included our mods, we are being cautious because we are now starting to take on commission work with the mods that we have shown on youtube and it would not make good business sense to make those mods public knowledge at the moment, hence the idea of a "How to book" in the future. And after all that has been said t us about leaching ideas from this site and making money, why should we fuel this proccess? We have given info on DD-Drum machines, DR-55 and now R-8 mods, which is a good starting point. If someone was to have the plans for our VL-1 then they could advertise that they could do the mods, but would it be known as the S-CAT 10-mod VL-1? Probably not.
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[s-cat]

There is a tiny difference between you and Roland or Yamaha:
Before the founders even started their business, they were already engineers and educated technicians. Also they designed and thus, created electronics from scratch.
Further, if you want to design and build your own stuff some time, I strongly suggest you to get a proper education in electronics. It helps, believe me.

To make things a little easier, we would be looking to employ technicians and designers. We would be concentrating on the business side of the project and paying good wages. Are you interested in a job?

[s-cat]

Are you talking about the Delfy units?

Anyhow, I agree with CrustyPaul's post - v. well put. Why have such grand ideas if you're already doing what you set out to do & people like it?? Why would you wanna be like Roland ?

Roland were once part of a small community, just as the weevil makers are now. It is good to know that people are getting involved on the discussion of business here and I hope that we can all get our ideas aired.

[Circuitbenders]

STILL posting multiple replies with one new post for each quote i see.

I've had enough of this.

[Illuminasty]

I'm thinking theres really not a lot you are in a position to do. IF you could actually prove that they had copied your design and IF you could prove that nobody had ever done those mods before you anyway, which would seem very unlikely, then what are you actually going to do about it? Take them to court for copyright infringement?

Exactly
Why would anyone think of copyrighting particular bend points or even complete sets of bend points???
I would only be mad if I used something unique to decorate the product and then someone done exactly the same...

[deathbender]

I would only be mad if I used something unique to decorate the product and then someone done exactly the same...

And even this is a reason to be proud in some way... you wouldn't get copied if what you did was crap!

[Illuminasty]

And even this is a reason to be proud in some way... you wouldn't get copied if what you did was crap!

I wish everyone thought the same way, then there wouldn't be any need for copyrighting.

[gmeredith]

I still think this whole copyright-my-bend thing is fraught with litigation danger from the manufacturers of the equipment you bend - especially if you draw and cpyright a schematic and show part of the manufacturers device's circuitry in it, or how to hook it up to a diagram of the device without their permission. I know for sure that Roland are vigilant at sending out cease and desist warnings to people that design things that even look vaguely cosmetically like some aspect of their equipment, let alone functionally attached to a part of their circuit.

SCAT: the safest thing for you to do, in your situation, while you are still a small outfit, is to write to Roland Inc. (or whatever brand of device) and ask their authorised permission to use their circuits to add your own bends to theirs for the purpose of selling their machines modified, explaining exactly what you are intending to do. Then see what they say. After all, wouldn't you expect that from someone wanting to copy/modify one of your designs? Then you will know for sure, and not be taking guesses about whether you are in the legal right or not about coyrighting an attached circuit.

One of 2 things will happen:

1. They will give you written permission, with certain limitations and obligations

2. They will send out a cease and desist letter and threaten legal action

If they send you a cease and desist letter, stating the legal action they will take against you if you continue, it will then mean that your copyright-my-R8-bend circuit idea is invalid. The only way to know for sure is to ask them what they think of it. I'm betting circumstance 2) will be what you get.

If you DO get that warning, you can still gain comfort from the fact that you did the right thing by asking them, and that you know exactly what you can and can't do, and that the business model you are working on should be changed while you are small enough to not suffer significant losses. Ditto for any other manufacturer you alter the circuit of. This is how bona-fide real businesses go about these things. They cover their legal asses by communicating with the party concerned. So if you consider yourself a business, not just a hobbyist making a few bucks on the side, you should dot your legal i's and cross your t's early on in your commercial history.

If it turns out that the copyright-your-bend assumption is false, you could still continue selling bent stuff commercially if you kept your head down and not bring attention to yourself by attaching copyright claims to your gear or advertising that clause. It really makes you a red flag to a bull for the big companies. And just because the UK has certain copyright laws doesn't mean Japan has those same laws or opinions, even in a different country, and that they will respect them and not go overseas to fight a legal battle.

Cheers, Graham

[Circuitbenders]

s-cat won't be replying i'm afraid. He was banned, as i can't help thinking he fully intended to be banned, after starting a 'make ££££'s working for s-cat' thread. I've got to draw the line somewhere and he'd been warned enough times.